get It Off my Chest...
by Here is my journal entry for this evening which is now morning...
I'm really sad on account of the fact that a very close friend of mine was disfellowshipped last week - it got announced and pretty much crushed me inside. A piece of me really got hurt, because he was a very good friend. He didn't tell me that it was gonna happen, I found out from someone else. I am sad because he didn't tell me himself, but I know him well enough to know why he didn't tell me; I didn't get to say goodbye.
Why does this happen?
So I worry because I don't want to lose anyone else to Satan's old system and everytime I turn around someone else is disappearing to this old system. I hate it -
Now in the same week my father's mother is in the hospital and on the brink of death - she had four mini strokes in a matter of two days and has not recovered. I am worried for my dad and wish there was something I could do more... yes this is all me being worried.
ALlright thats about it - I need to go to bed now... good night.
AI Summary
117 Comments
ugh, close ones who are disfellowshipped is such a struggle. all you can do is pray that they turn around.
I don't mean to be callous about this, but I really don't understand that. These people have rejected Jehovah and his standards and there is no place in my heart for such an one. And as for praying for them to turn around; I may be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that's inappropriate, since they have already taken a stand against Jehovah.
i'm know what you mean. When it happens--you feel bad. sure. not that i'm perfect by any stretch, but i just don't have much sympathy for those who willfully go against Jehovah, fully aware of the consequences. certainly you hope they will learn and make a full recovery and return. i don't have the "according to hoyle" accepted procedure book in front of me, but i think praying for someone who's disfellowshipped is improper. almost 100% sure.
that's not necessarily true at all. some people are df'ed after they've been on a bad course, and that's what they need to get back on track. i've seen it happens. it's definitely not wrong to pray for them. i'm not making excuses for people, but sometimes people just mess up, or sometimes people are under so much pressure that they're not ready to handle it. DF'ing is a loving provision for them really.
yeah it' s Jehovah's last stitch effort to get them to come back to there senses.
they haven't taken a stand against jehovah UNLESS they have turned apostate. If they are disfellowshipped, they have sinned and not been repentant- hence, warranting their removal from the congregation. we would pray for them the way we might pray for a worldly person to have the right heart condition.
Remember the parable about the shephard who rejoices when he finds the ONE lost sheep, more than the other 99 he has??
actually - there is a watchtower article about this - Dec. 2001 Questions from Readers. I learned that it wouldn't be appropriate to publicly pray for such ones - but privately (once they've seen a repentant attitude) for the disfellowshipped one to act in harmony with God's will and requirements, and for Jehovah to treat the sinner according to his will.
Very interesting stuff.
i remember reading that!
Yes, but it would only be appropriate after they have shown signs of repentance, and even then I think it's only appropriate to pray that the elders notice those signs, and not specifically for the person to be reinstated.
actually, according to that article:
*** w71 6/15 p. 383 Questions from Readers ***
"Scripturally, it does not seem fitting and proper for a faithful Christian to pray for a disfellowshiped person...Jehovah’s law commands the Christian congregation to expel those who practice such things and who show no heartfelt repentance for their acts. The faithful members of the congregation should have no spiritual association with them."
check out the more updated Questions from Readers in 2001. I think this is an instance where the light has gotten brighter.....
hey, thx, Dan, you're right:
"Since the person is no longer in the congregation, any change in heart and attitude may be observed first by those close to him, such as a marriage mate or family members. Those observing such changes may conclude that the transgressor did not commit a sin that incurs death. They may be moved to pray that he may draw strength from God’s inspired Word and that Jehovah will act toward the sinner in harmony with His will.—Psalm 44:21; Ecclesiastes 12:14."
or if they disassociate themselves by writing a letter to the society.
and, Jehovah is a forgiving god. You remember how many times he forgave the nation of israel, despite their continuous wrong doing. The reason we have the disfellowshipping process isn't to cut people off and declare them wrong doers who have taken a stand against jehovah, because they havent, they've made a mistake...and disfellowshipping an excellent provision from jehovah that allows sinners to come to meetings still, but still be punished so that they'll understand their wrong doing...and most importantly, it's a provision that keeps the congregation clean. Anyway, point is...it's not your place to judge...only Jehovah's
If they had just made a mistake and were repentant they wouldn't have been disfellowshipped. They would have been reproved. Disfellowshipping is only for those who willfully go against Jehovah's laws.
That's not entirely true about not being disfellowshipped if they were repentant. I've talked to my dad about it (being that he's been on many committees involving disfellowshipping). Some people just have issues that need to be dealt with that a simple slap on the wrist isn't going to help. And if the person wasn't repentant, why would they be at every meeting in an effort to come back? I don't get it.
yea, i agree w/ jen and matt. its not always because they're not repentant. i know someone who had privliges taken away, then were reproved, then finally d/fed. and probly none of the things individually would have been enough to have them dfed but it was like, the last thing they could do. but she came back w/in 6months so that is good.
This isn't entirely true. Example: I know a person that got extremely depressed after one of his friends was killed in a car accident, he stopped going to meetings, began drinking, and smoking pot. After a while he came to his senses, and went to the elders and confessed what he had done. He was still disfellowshipped, probably because he had done these things over a period of several months. he started going to meetings again, and a few months later, was reinstated. so even if you are repentant, you can be disfellowshipped.
I'm not trying to say your friend wasn't repentant, or that the elders made a mistake, but if you read pages 145-8 of the OM book it makes it quite clear that only unrepentant wrongdoers are disfellowshipped.
i disagree fully, last week we had a full hour in our bookstudy about loving our brothers and sisters and extending that love to those outside of that brotherhood. If someone is disfellowshipped, they have sinned, but it is our HOPE that they return to the congregation... why wouldnt we pray for them to return? Showing our love? And funky is right, being d/fed means that they have been on a bad course and jehovah and the elders are trying to help them out, if they havent written them off, why should we?
This is for comment #2 -
somehow you got it replied to you Mike and it doesn't ... thank you for being so sweet.;)
well you can't pray for them, you can pray about them - just that they come to their senses.
If you don't mind me asking, have you ever had someone very close to you be disfellowshippes/leave the truth?
My (former) best friend was (and I think still is) disfellowshipped. My little brother disassociated himself 6 years ago. A really good friend of the family's was disfellowshipped a few years ago. So, yes I have.
I dunno if you were repling to me, but I had someone in my hall that was more or less like my grandfather get dfed, and i prayed all the time that he would come back, and he did, but it took 2 years, it was hard, but it was really amazing when he did come back.
hey mike i was replying to starshipTrooper - somehow the comment got posted with you.
But the thank you for being sweet part - that was for you...
hhaha oh ok.. sorry about the confusion, haha
well, my aunt has been disfellowshipped for many years. she babysat me when i was a little kid and for a lot of years. i even used to call her mommy, my own mom didn't even potty train me, that's how close i was to her. but i didn't know how serious disfellowshipping was. as i grew up, it was hard for me to stop going over her house and eventually i did. i rarely go over to see her now. that's my story.
Well don't give up hope. I was DF'd for about 5 years. And not 1 day went by that I didn't wake up saying to myself "What am I doing? I know where the truth is."
I still hope for a few close friends of mine that I grew up with. They were brothers to me.
There is a brother that as far back as I could remember was DF'd. I think he was gone for 20+ years. He eventually came back and is doing very good now.
So don't give up hope. :)
thanks, you're a real encouragement bro.
try having a d/f kid.
so many of the kids she grew up with are d/f too.
ok, listen, can you show empathy instead of turning it to you and your family? I'm not hating on you, or beating you up, but when someone's having a rough week, it's not kind to say "you think THAT'S bad! try THIS!" and then launch into your own life.
I, personally, dispise when I start talking about when something's bothering me, and someone says "i know JUST how you feel! that happened to me last week when..." and i just tune them about, because i didn't ASK to hear about THEM. I asked them to listen.
yea, that is a good point, **DISCLAIMER** I AM NOT TRYING TO DISRESPECT YOU STARSHIP** but yea, i think that lauren is going through some hard times, the least all of us can do is try to offer support not give her more reason to feel bad.
haha i have no starship. i do feel bad. i've been d/f. i know what it does to the family.
did you even read dan's comment? he brought up a good point for us all to work on.
i felt her pain right away. just b/c i reacted the way i did SHOWS empathy cause i know the pain a d/f loved one or friend causes. excuse me for being human.
"try having a d/fed kid"
means...."you aren't that bad off. Try having a d/fed kid".
it's ok to admit you came across inappropriately. part of being human. and adult.
i didnt mean TRY having one.....i meant its hard on a woman who has carried that baby inside herself, vowing to have her serve Jah, then her turning 360 (or is it 180) and becoming pretty much not wanting to come back. THATS why i said u wouldnt understand, and expected ur reply.
Yeah, it was rough on my mom, she couldn't even go to the meeting the night it was announced. This is the third time one of her kids has been DF'd. I was the first. I think my family is just cursed. :P
yeah i didnt either.
I was there when they announced it for me, and he was there when they announced it for him. That was rough, especially last week cause I don't think ANYONE suspected it. Shoot, I was blown away when I found out.
rough, isnt it?
Yeah, back in '94 right after high school. I was lieing about what was going on for over year. I had a real bad attitude. I didn't come back till after I was married in '99. I went to the assembly that my sister-in-law got baptized at and that triggered me to get my life in gear. I quit smoking that day, one of the hardest things I ever had to do in my life. It was no cake walk. I kept falling into pit after pit.
glad ur back tho! did u think its harder to first come into the truth, or be reinstatted?
I was raised in the truth so I can't really answer that. I was baptized at 12. It's funny though, when I was DF'd I never felt comfortable in the world. Their morals are just all screwed up. I was reinstated on a sunday too, that was interesting.
well i dont know u but I'm glad ur back. it gives hope for other young ones.
i found it harder to get reinstated b/c its easy to love God but not to hate wrong. and i wasnt raised by Godly standards even tho my parents did the best they could.
Thanks, good to be back. Yeah, when I was DF'd I picked up other bad habits that I never had before (drugs, smoking, immorality) so stopping them was very difficult. But once you put your mind to it, with Jehovah's help (because you can't do it alone) things came together.
man... it's so crazy that that can happen being raised in the truth. satan just has so many temptations, i'm sure once u start getting reeled in, ur forget all the stuff u learned. glad you're back buddy, excellent.
that has got to be the hardest thing to sit through (for yourself).
Yup, because you're sitting there filled with embarrasment and shame.
i think dan knows what you meant. what he is telling you is when someone is feeling bad, don't talk about how bad your life is. Empathize and tell them you are sorry they are in so much pain. Try to help them w/ some constructive ways to ease their pain. It's just that you come across as if your problems are so much worse than everyone else's that it's like their feelings are invalid or just an overreaction compared to how things COULD be.
well then i'm much mizunderstood. ce'st la Vie
and btw i corresponded with Violet and she wasnt bent outta shape.
i did, to HER. I owe U nothing
did you guys know that sympathy and empathy are actually 2 different things? Points to whoever can explain the diff without consulting dictionary.com
i can...but i dont care enough to
Matt, i know what you mean because i sometimes want to test the knowledge of the ezablers. But as a new yorker i'm miffed by the lack of vocabulary and spelling by a lot of people on here...
sympathy is feeling bad for someone for a reason
empathy is actually taking on those feelings, and sharing their pain.
i know, i had the instruction talk on this a couple of weeks ago.
u got it backwards dude. nice job misleading the congregation.
i thought he was close. isn't empathy when you can sympathize b/c you can relate from personal experience to what the person is feeling?
ohhh...wrong again mr. kelly...
em·pa·thy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mp-th)
n.
Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives. See
sym·pa·thy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (smp-th)
n. pl. sym·pa·thies
A relationship or an affinity between people or things in which whatever affects one correspondingly affects the other.
Mutual understanding or affection arising from this relationship or affinity.
yeah, that's not really the right way to express it though.
if your cat died, and i tell you "i'm sorry - that really sucks" - that's sympathy. i feel bad for you.
but if your cat died, and i say "maaaan. tell me what it feels like. i want to understand. and then, when i do understand, we can work through it together..." that's empathy.
And then when you say that I say, man it's just a cat, stop being so ghey. :P (kidding, trying to lighten up the mood)
go for it jess... no more negativety guys - it's all good!
YEAH AH EYEAH YEAH I'm going to Hawaii... say it, it'll make you smile.
Dans right....sorry funky...wasn't there an article in the WT on this a while back?
yeah there was one about three years ago - questions from readers im thinking.
There was a part on the service meeting I think maybe 2 or 3 weeks ago about empathy.
Ask Perrin, he had the assignment.
actually empathy is more so... i've been there.. i truly understand.. and feel it..
sypathy you haven't expereienced it. but feel the pain.
i win. you got serv'd
guys... you're all confused. i took Helpdesk Analyst training and they told us: empathize but don't sympathize. you empathize, u say, hey i'm sorry you're having a problem. you sympathize, you take on the emotions of the situation and share them with the person.
What Is Empathy?
One dictionary says that empathy is the "identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives." It has also been described as the ability to put oneself in the other fellow's place. So empathy requires first of all that we comprehend the circumstances of someone else and second that we share the feelings that those circumstances provoke in him. Yes, empathy involves our feeling another person's pain in our heart.
go to www.watchtower.org
wow... now i'm confused. i can't think about this anymore
i'm telling you empahty is when you fullly understand the pain... for instance being through the problem already yourself.
and sympathy is understanding it from outside the actual pain.. etc
WHO CARES anyway you say empahty or sympathy and people will think you are right. and not say anything.
very good ty. don't forget your 5 o'clock pill.
DUDE! you're getting it backwards! read the definition! comprehend it!!
no see, here it is... dan has empathy for matt cause they are both GHEY!!! all of you shutup!!! the point is that ty is asian, im hot, and ian is an evil dictator!!! We need to channel all this hate and energy at the the person that deserves it... THE MAN!!!! and that man.... is iwz... make him PAY for changing the musings view, and taking away chat, and removin the GAMES section... Do it for GFS Rocks... do it for yourself....
i liked your whole plan, except for the "do it for GFS Rocks" part...
ian, where's the games server already?!?
I don't know what you're talking about, but I have a game server on my ezabel when I log-in.
seriously??? you lie!!
No, the link for it is right between Forums and Events at the top. I haven't clicked on it yet though, should I check it out?
i don't have it!! how do you have it??
I don't know. I do not question the higher ezabel beings because then they make my musings box dance! I'm not even gonna use it anyways, I don't like computer games too much.
you must be playing a trick, because i don't have it either
it better not be another trick that hates on "musings view" people!!
That would make sense but I have it and I'm a musing view person.
We're not uber cool yet...
you totally misunderstood my comment, but that was to be expected.
no. you missed the point of MY comment (as was expected). read it again. more slowly. look for the parts that apply to you.
how as that funny?
because he put (as was expected) in parenthesis...subtle sarcasm
sarcasm can be worse then a blade
but it didn't make me laugh
try having to d/f sack of potatoes. and a beer
you said everytime you turn around, someone else is disappearing into this system. Sometimes that feels so true. It's so true. But, to turn it around into a positive thing, it reminds us that satan is tempting us all, everyday, and that it's very easy to fall into his snares, so we have to be extra careful, especially in these last days.
thanks that is such a nice thing to say.
that also reminds me tha soon, VERY soon, all this stuff will be over for good, and it wont even be called to mind anymore.
i agree tinser. seeing what is happening to everyone around you can be a good wake up call and reminder that it could happen to anyone and you have to constantly watch yourself.
wow, i can imagine that being really hard, evne though i've never experienced that for myself. but i can think about the freinds that i have and imagoine how it would hurt me if they were to be expelled from the congregation. I guess it's imprtant in that situation to pour out your heart to Jehovah on the matter, look for his comfort. Like what David said, when his disquietiing thoughts were disturbing him, Jehovah's consolations began to 'fondle his soul'(Psalm 94:19). Jehovah will surely do the same for you. Just keep praying and seeking comfort in Jehovah and true freinds, and He will make sure that the "peace of God that excels all thought" guards your heart. (Philippians 4:6-7) I pray that Jehovah takes care of you while you're undergoing these losses and trials and sadness. I'm sure that He will. :)
I truly feel bad, its a wake up call for us because SURPRISE, we're imperfect and if we have a "tear" in our suit of armor, satan takes FULL advantage and thats how we become weak.
Are they truly evil/bad people, NO, did they have that tear in their "spiritual armor" yes and satan took full advantage. Does Jehovah reprimand those he loves? YES....
*my heart goes out to you violetbeauregard....I know what your going through my heart and prayers go out to you!
I feel your pain, try being related to him. As the older brother I had hoped he learned from my mistakes. Yet he seemed to have fell in the same trap I did. I love him to death and he was my best friend. He came over and we went out to diner the night before and we talked. At least I was able to give him the warnings I didn't have. I started out strong, going to the meetings, but I eventually faded. It's like Paul said, you have lost the love you had at first. That's what happened to me. I slowly lost the love I had for the truth and for Jehovah and fell into pit after pit. Satan continually threw things in front of my face that were never there when you're protected by Jehovah's loving arms.
I made that very clear to him and told him to be careful. He's got a good attitude and I hope he's able to stay that way. I wrote him a poem the night before it was announced:
I fell, you were there, you saw the pain I caused
Or did you? Were you sleeping, did you put your life on pause?
You're world seemed to crash, at least that's what I heard
You were sick, got a bit rash, and hid like a bird
I found out the hard way, if only I listened
the warnings were there, they even glistened
I paid them no heed, and fell on my back
Why did I let my greed cause me to crack?
I was so happy to see you doing so well
These traps I was in, caused me to yell
you seemed to listen, but was it for real?
Would you make the same mistakes, did you understand my deal?
I hoped you paid attention, lessons learned
I paid the price I prayed you wouldn't get burned
A whole new perspective you've given me
I now see what I've caused, become a reality
I understand all too much the pain I caused
The hurt I feel I can't just pause
I've never been on this side before, it's certainly no fun
This pain I feel, you worry me, I can't see the sun
I love you my brother, my best friend
Hang in there, stay strong, endure to the end
Know I'll be there waiting, with open arms
I hope you avoid all of Satan's charms
Till that time should come
I'll be here praying, a tune I'll hum
la da dee, la da dum
-----
I pray that he returns soon. I know he's a good kid and has a good heart. He totally as the right attitude with the whole thing. He recoginizes that Jehovah disciplines those he loves. This is a blessing. I hope too that this will help him to mature into the man he will be become. I'm sure he'll have the right attitude all the way through. I just look at myself and recognize that all my trials have just made me a stronger person.
it's your brother? I'm SO sorry! my prayers go out to you too!
i have a good feeling he'll be back. that whipper snapper was a good kid.
I remember when we were like 7 yrs old playing P.O.W. back at my apartment in hilltop...
ohhh
the time we accidently ordered PORN.. and we had to tell your mom. MAN.. that was scary... we were like 10. we were wrestling and somehow it happened. good times good times. he'll come back.
yeah just hang in there
LOL, I didn't know about that! Hilltop was bad. Man, I used to go upstairs and do vodka shots with the kids up there. I was like 8 at the time.
I just remembered you had the coolest Nintendo games. If I wanted to play it you had it.
Yeah, he's a good kid, he'll be back.
yea some crazy times happened in hilltop man... and thats where i grew up. i saw and did too many things for being under 10.
EEEEVVVVERRYYYTHINNNNGG.
umm yea man ... i had the 120 nintendo game cartridge man.
thats why i have bad vision.
i sat there and blinded myself with video games back in the day.
I think we all have done and seen way too many things before 10.
I remember at like 7 playing strip poker with some kids in the neighborhood. We'd also hang and set fires on the shed of one kids roof. We'd then pee on them to put the fires out. Then of course we had the one kid who knew where his dad hid the nudie magazines.
Man, that explains a lot...
hey hey there's kids around here. shhhhhhhhhhhh... haha
you keep secret the jessie stories. I keep secret the ty stories.
I just wanted to say thank you to everyone for being so amazing and sweet with your comments - its appreciated like nothing else...
and to modestmouse, yeah he'll be back - he knows.
no freaking way. i just realized who you are talking about. :( thats so sad.
*hugs* and I have to type 15 characters to send anything so *hugs* again. :)
yeah i think we all were upset by this news. When someone you loved who caused you so much joy in your life and made you smile...it's really tough. But we keep going.
i have a big chest, booyah!
me too - lol... lol... sorry had to mike.
someone POSTED this AT MY COMPUTER!!! lol, i mean, yes its true... but still...
lol - uh huh... lol.
hahah SERIOUSLY!!!! people at my house do this to me ALL the time... always about my boobs! maaaaan!